I do not believe doctors or nurses had a deliberate intent to cause harm, I think they were given protocols handed down to them from whatever regulatory body they trust and answer to, then followed them to the letter. If they question why the patients do not survive it will never be the protocols it will be rationalised, it is the effect of the "deadly disease" and the patient's age/underlying condition or we followed the protocol and "tried our best" but the patient was weakened by the "deadly disease", there are many scenarios they can play in their head. They then move on to the next patient and repeat the same actions. I think the protocols absolved them from responsibility and encouraged groupthink where no one questioned the authority giving them orders, critical thinking was discouraged. We were all told it was a time of life threatening emergency, doctors are not exempt from succumbing to the same fear and hysteria that was deliberately pushed onto the populations. The scariest thing was the need to blindly follow orders even to the detriment of their patients, it becomes almost a mission. "I'm doing this for your own good" should fill us all with fear.
An assessment of whether "doctors or nurses had a deliberate intent to cause harm" is - on its own - not nuanced enough to be meaningful - though I know that's not ONLY what you said above.
My point - which is largely the same as you then go on to make - was that the climate of fear driven by propaganda led them to do things they would not otherwise have done.
Whatever unleashed that climate of fear & propaganda is ultimately responsible for the murder & torture of the elderly. Now they have the young to face & some of us will not go quietly to the grave. It's all so horrible and could have been averted if more had fought sooner & harder (not least those that had the duty of care), but fight we must lest so many deaths be in vain and fail to disturb the masses from their apathy.
Something else to consider, which is illustrated in the Memorial Hospital incident:
It is very difficult to get people in a system (hospitals, restaurants, schools) to suddenly do something that is not already consistent in some way, shape, or form with what they have been primed to do. You have to leverage existing mechanisms, ways of thinking, etc.
The protocols you reference were issued suddenly, but most things that healthcare workers and first responders were being told to do were in line with a) how they had been taught to think of flu or a possible flu pandemic, b) how they were/are educated to think about "spread" of respiratory illness, c) critical/palliative care protocols, and/or d) disaster medicine situations/plans.
In my experience of care of the frail, disabled & elderly, there is a LOT of wriggle room around the phrase ‘intent to cause harm’. How many times did we hear how horrific ‘drowning in your own lung fluids’ would be? In my experience it is not a rare thing for medical ‘professionals’ in such settings to believe that ‘a good death’ is far kinder & less harmful than subjecting such patients to what would normally be the realities of their condition if it weren’t for drugs. And somewhat terrifyingly they often don’t question their own judgement in such matters & even less so if no family are there to object.
Good palliative care should not be about sedating patients at the end stage of the disease process. Their aim is not the death of the patient, it must only be to help relieve symptoms that are problematic for the patient not the doctor. I have see seen it done properly where the patient goes on to function better with good management of symptom relief and are not burdened with heavy sedation and its consequences. The only aim should be a good life and a good death will follow naturally in its own time, that is what palliative care is about.
That’s nice in a theoretical/classroom sense but that isn’t what happens on the ground/in real life. Subjective decisions are made & horror at pain & assumed ‘indignities’ inform people’s choices whilst they tell themselves exactly what you said & tell others that’s what they are doing.
Sure some maybe very careful & follow the theory but ime they are increasingly rare.
No one was objecting when they wanted to starve my father to death years ago until we sought out someone who could allow his release into our care (he had three more years in him & he was comfortable for those three years) and that was just his terminal illness not with an added propaganda inflicted hysteria in the mix. And his/our experience is & was not a rare event.
I could show most people the state my father was in (back then not in pain but aphasic & demented) & they would have no qualms in telling me his daughter to my face that he was better off dead (& they’d often say it in front of him). This is the reality not the theory.
Only those who were close enough to him to still value him & see him as a person who not always but on occasion seemed to be aware of his circumstances felt otherwise, still saw him as a person. He still laughed, & liked a cuddle, held my hand, looked into my eyes, taught me compassion & strength. To others he was just a stranger & a horrible visage of their own potential future that they’d prefer not to see or think about.
'Given protocols to follow'. Utter rubbish. The nuremburg trials declared that 'following orders' was no excuse for illegal actions. Even in todays military the responsibility for actions lies with the individual... you shoot someone you have to have justifiable reason.
Therefore a doctor or nurse should know what they are doing is right or wrong. Do No Harm.
In the UK, Chris Whitty - Chief Medical Officer England and his 3 counterparts in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, alongside other ‘high-ups’ in the so called health-care field, signed a letter informing NHS staff that deviating from established NHS rules and practice would basically be overlooked by their professional bodies.
An official get-out-of-jail card issued to formalise and normalise questionable - and abhorrent- practice.
I do not believe doctors or nurses had a deliberate intent to cause harm, I think they were given protocols handed down to them from whatever regulatory body they trust and answer to, then followed them to the letter. If they question why the patients do not survive it will never be the protocols it will be rationalised, it is the effect of the "deadly disease" and the patient's age/underlying condition or we followed the protocol and "tried our best" but the patient was weakened by the "deadly disease", there are many scenarios they can play in their head. They then move on to the next patient and repeat the same actions. I think the protocols absolved them from responsibility and encouraged groupthink where no one questioned the authority giving them orders, critical thinking was discouraged. We were all told it was a time of life threatening emergency, doctors are not exempt from succumbing to the same fear and hysteria that was deliberately pushed onto the populations. The scariest thing was the need to blindly follow orders even to the detriment of their patients, it becomes almost a mission. "I'm doing this for your own good" should fill us all with fear.
An assessment of whether "doctors or nurses had a deliberate intent to cause harm" is - on its own - not nuanced enough to be meaningful - though I know that's not ONLY what you said above.
My point - which is largely the same as you then go on to make - was that the climate of fear driven by propaganda led them to do things they would not otherwise have done.
Whatever unleashed that climate of fear & propaganda is ultimately responsible for the murder & torture of the elderly. Now they have the young to face & some of us will not go quietly to the grave. It's all so horrible and could have been averted if more had fought sooner & harder (not least those that had the duty of care), but fight we must lest so many deaths be in vain and fail to disturb the masses from their apathy.
Thank you for fighting Jonathan [fist bump emoji]
Exactly, succinctly stated summary. Thank you
Something else to consider, which is illustrated in the Memorial Hospital incident:
It is very difficult to get people in a system (hospitals, restaurants, schools) to suddenly do something that is not already consistent in some way, shape, or form with what they have been primed to do. You have to leverage existing mechanisms, ways of thinking, etc.
The protocols you reference were issued suddenly, but most things that healthcare workers and first responders were being told to do were in line with a) how they had been taught to think of flu or a possible flu pandemic, b) how they were/are educated to think about "spread" of respiratory illness, c) critical/palliative care protocols, and/or d) disaster medicine situations/plans.
In my experience of care of the frail, disabled & elderly, there is a LOT of wriggle room around the phrase ‘intent to cause harm’. How many times did we hear how horrific ‘drowning in your own lung fluids’ would be? In my experience it is not a rare thing for medical ‘professionals’ in such settings to believe that ‘a good death’ is far kinder & less harmful than subjecting such patients to what would normally be the realities of their condition if it weren’t for drugs. And somewhat terrifyingly they often don’t question their own judgement in such matters & even less so if no family are there to object.
Good palliative care should not be about sedating patients at the end stage of the disease process. Their aim is not the death of the patient, it must only be to help relieve symptoms that are problematic for the patient not the doctor. I have see seen it done properly where the patient goes on to function better with good management of symptom relief and are not burdened with heavy sedation and its consequences. The only aim should be a good life and a good death will follow naturally in its own time, that is what palliative care is about.
That’s nice in a theoretical/classroom sense but that isn’t what happens on the ground/in real life. Subjective decisions are made & horror at pain & assumed ‘indignities’ inform people’s choices whilst they tell themselves exactly what you said & tell others that’s what they are doing.
Sure some maybe very careful & follow the theory but ime they are increasingly rare.
No one was objecting when they wanted to starve my father to death years ago until we sought out someone who could allow his release into our care (he had three more years in him & he was comfortable for those three years) and that was just his terminal illness not with an added propaganda inflicted hysteria in the mix. And his/our experience is & was not a rare event.
I could show most people the state my father was in (back then not in pain but aphasic & demented) & they would have no qualms in telling me his daughter to my face that he was better off dead (& they’d often say it in front of him). This is the reality not the theory.
Only those who were close enough to him to still value him & see him as a person who not always but on occasion seemed to be aware of his circumstances felt otherwise, still saw him as a person. He still laughed, & liked a cuddle, held my hand, looked into my eyes, taught me compassion & strength. To others he was just a stranger & a horrible visage of their own potential future that they’d prefer not to see or think about.
'Given protocols to follow'. Utter rubbish. The nuremburg trials declared that 'following orders' was no excuse for illegal actions. Even in todays military the responsibility for actions lies with the individual... you shoot someone you have to have justifiable reason.
Therefore a doctor or nurse should know what they are doing is right or wrong. Do No Harm.
In the UK, Chris Whitty - Chief Medical Officer England and his 3 counterparts in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, alongside other ‘high-ups’ in the so called health-care field, signed a letter informing NHS staff that deviating from established NHS rules and practice would basically be overlooked by their professional bodies.
An official get-out-of-jail card issued to formalise and normalise questionable - and abhorrent- practice.
https://twitter.com/CMO_England/status/1326516354300735488